Using sponge foam as substrate base

[nik]

Hello B,

in your country there is a successful culture of designing and running planted tanks. I am not very familiar with it. Too far away, too little contact.

So, can I summarise by saying you would go with the polystyrene, not foam sheet?

I'm summarising them a sponge base would be great for livestock but maybe not so for plants without ongoing ferts etc?

I think that gives the wrong impression. My summary differs a little.
You have concerns about pollutants in the styrofoam you have available and want to replace it with filter foam.
My concerns would be the mid-term stability of the filter foam and the successive infiltration of fine components.

I would not overestimate the special filter effect of such filter foam. It is not very different from the coarse substrates under the nutrient-rich soil. In general, denitrification requires a low-oxygen environment, which is achieved by microbial decomposition of organic matter. As a further condition for denitrification, the corresponding anaerobic bacteria are needed, which require organic carbon compounds as a basis for life. This is less likely in a planted tank with a low organic load. Nitrate is an unproblematic nutrient and denitrification is downright undesirable if a planted tank is fertilised with nitrogen.

Perhaps there are other ways to replace the styrofoam. I can think of cold packs filled with water (or sand). Appropriately cut tiles ... feel free to find a better solution. ^^

I certainly am in favour of less stuff to care about~
I guess I am trying to find a balance between animal, plant and aesthetics without "too much stuff to care about."

The concept described in my signature is already very different from the usual planted tanks with soil and heavy filtration. The focus is on a transparently reacting, low-maintenance, stable, algue-free and long-lasting planted tank. Low filtration is usually associated with this, which is certainly important, but the decisive factor for the successful operation of an aquarium is its microbiology.
I would therefore not throw your current concept overboard. There are several concepts that work well. If you are interested in my concept with its focus on microbiology and its dependencies, I would not mix it with your current plan.
In general, I prefer the KISS strategy (Keep It Simple Stupid).
The original idea was to provide the aquarist with the means for a stable aquarium and to focus primarily on the design of his planted tank. Unfortunately, the goal of a well-functioning microbiology is not always easy to achieve. I wish you much success.

With kind regards
Nik




Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

[TheBic]

Hello B,

in your country there is a successful culture of designing and running planted tanks. I am not very familiar with it. Too far away, too little contact.



I think that gives the wrong impression. My summary differs a little.
You have concerns about pollutants in the styrofoam you have available and want to replace it with filter foam.
My concerns would be the mid-term stability of the filter foam and the successive infiltration of fine components.

I would not overestimate the special filter effect of such filter foam. It is not very different from the coarse substrates under the nutrient-rich soil. In general, denitrification requires a low-oxygen environment, which is achieved by microbial decomposition of organic matter. As a further condition for denitrification, the corresponding anaerobic bacteria are needed, which require organic carbon compounds as a basis for life. This is less likely in a planted tank with a low organic load. Nitrate is an unproblematic nutrient and denitrification is downright undesirable if a planted tank is fertilised with nitrogen.

Perhaps there are other ways to replace the styrofoam. I can think of cold packs filled with water (or sand). Appropriately cut tiles ... feel free to find a better solution. ^^


The concept described in my signature is already very different from the usual planted tanks with soil and heavy filtration. The focus is on a transparently reacting, low-maintenance, stable, algue-free and long-lasting planted tank. Low filtration is usually associated with this, which is certainly important, but the decisive factor for the successful operation of an aquarium is its microbiology.
I would therefore not throw your current concept overboard. There are several concepts that work well. If you are interested in my concept with its focus on microbiology and its dependencies, I would not mix it with your current plan.
In general, I prefer the KISS strategy (Keep It Simple Stupid).
The original idea was to provide the aquarist with the means for a stable aquarium and to focus primarily on the design of his planted tank. Unfortunately, the goal of a well-functioning microbiology is not always easy to achieve. I wish you much success.

With kind regards
Nik




Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Hello Nik, that is very, very interesting.
I will need to read it again a few times to properly digest it.
I like the ideas you espouse, close to what I was trying for.
Sadly I can not find the link you mentioned in your signature, can you send me please so I might read that too?
I have also been looking at other alternatives - what is the correct procedure if I want to ask about them here?
As it is the same subject, but different media, do I list it here or start an entirely new post?
Thnx
B

 

[Zer0Fame]

Hiya,

here's the link: https://www.flowgrow.de/threads/geringfilterung-–-der-thread.36155/

 

[nik]

Hello B,

Dominic has already posted the link to the low filtration thread. I have to point out again, the thread on microbiology is the most important one for the successful operation of a tank. This thread is the introduction to the concept and gives an overview. Each of the related threads is linked to each other. It is always a group of links, usually at the beginning of the thread, sometimes hidden in a spoiler.
It's a lot of stuff, I know that, and at first glance good for a "buffer overflow". It's not easy either, it needs to be worked out. But I know from feedback that tanks have been successfully set up according to this concept without me noticing.
For each part of the topic/thread, it is also possible to write, discuss, ask and point out in the thread.

With kind regards
Nik

 

[TheBic]

Hello B,

Dominic has already posted the link to the low filtration thread. I have to point out again, the thread on microbiology is the most important one for the successful operation of a tank. This thread is the introduction to the concept and gives an overview. Each of the related threads is linked to each other. It is always a group of links, usually at the beginning of the thread, sometimes hidden in a spoiler.
It's a lot of stuff, I know that, and at first glance good for a "buffer overflow". It's not easy either, it needs to be worked out. But I know from feedback that tanks have been successfully set up according to this concept without me noticing.
For each part of the topic/thread, it is also possible to write, discuss, ask and point out in the thread.

With kind regards
Nik

@nik cand @Zer0Fame - thx guys.
There is, as you say, a lot to take in.
As I think I mighty have said, probably ad nausea, your concept is something similar to what I was wanting to achieve.
Yours is just a little more, errr, radical maybe?
I mean, it departs from everything that is on the web re filtration, filtration etc.
They all make what is supposed to be a hobby seem like a tonne of work.
I have read it thru once, will read it carefully a few more times.
So don't expect to see me back here for a while~
Again thx to everyone who jumped in with support.
Bic

 

[Lixa]

Hello,
I used filter sponge as a substrate under a very thin layer of gravel and pebbles.

1. Replanting Cryptocoryne or anything else with Strong roots is a mess.
2. It accumulated dirt and absorbed fertilizers
3. Cleaning is difficult, anything that is under the sponge is difficult to retrieve

Viele Grüße
Alicia

 

[TheBic]

Dear Lixa, hello, thanks for your input.
Your points 2 and 3 were my major concerns as I know how dirty and clogged up foam gets in HOB filters etc.
However I did not want to "seed" or "lead" the conversation by asking that directly.
Thank you so much.

I am looking at other alternatives now, also reading, re reading and analysing @nik's ideas and theories.
May I ask, what did you do in the end?
Did you use Nik's approach?
Is your tank heavily planted or more a Japanese style?
Thx again
P

 

[Lixa]

I am looking at other alternatives now, also reading, re reading and analysing @nik's ideas and theories.
May I ask, what did you do in the end?
Did you use Nik's approach?
Is your tank heavily planted or more a Japanese style?
Thx again
P

Hello,
It was an unfiltered Paludarium, fully grown.

For vertical usage the thin foam worked well, it just needs to be replaced when you replant the area, since the foam often breaks when you pull out the plant.

I'd use gravel or sand for the bottom and for hills thin foam. You can colour the blue foam with tea or humic acids from leaves to brown. Brown foam looks like earth and can look great with bright green plants on it.

Below the foam hills you can use plastic grates. Look up Sherpa's Design on YouTube. That guy has already used almost any material available.

Just make sure the water moves a little below the foam and then even the animals will love these caves. That's also why the hills need to be removable. Don't worry, fixed on plastic grates e.g. with cable ties, it won't float so much, so you need very little weight to keep it down.

And beware of that Serpa Design YouTube channel - his skills are amazing. He is more centered above water, but not limited to that.

Viele Grüße
Alicia

 

[TheBic]

Hello,
It was an unfiltered Paludarium, fully grown.

For vertical usage the thin foam worked well, it just needs to be replaced when you replant the area, since the foam often breaks when you pull out the plant.

I'd use gravel or sand for the bottom and for hills thin foam. You can colour the blue foam with tea or humic acids from leaves to brown. Brown foam looks like earth and can look great with bright green plants on it.

Below the foam hills you can use plastic grates. Look up Sherpa's Design on YouTube. That guy has already used almost any material available.

Just make sure the water moves a little below the foam and then even the animals will love these caves. That's also why the hills need to be removable. Don't worry, fixed on plastic grates e.g. with cable ties, it won't float so much, so you need very little weight to keep it down.

And beware of that Serpa Design YouTube channel - his skills are amazing. He is more centered above water, but not limited to that.

Viele Grüße
Alicia

Wow! Thanks very much @Lixa, that reply was way over and beyond the call of duty.
Details very much appreciated.
Clearly I need to learn more about paludarium tanks, but is seems like a lot of work.
I'm not sure what your job is, but sadly I don't have the time to dedicate a lot to the hobby.
Thanks again buddy - wish you well.
P

 

[TheBic]

Hello B,

Dominic has already posted the link to the low filtration thread. I have to point out again, the thread on microbiology is the most important one for the successful operation of a tank. This thread is the introduction to the concept and gives an overview. Each of the related threads is linked to each other. It is always a group of links, usually at the beginning of the thread, sometimes hidden in a spoiler.
It's a lot of stuff, I know that, and at first glance good for a "buffer overflow". It's not easy either, it needs to be worked out. But I know from feedback that tanks have been successfully set up according to this concept without me noticing.
For each part of the topic/thread, it is also possible to write, discuss, ask and point out in the thread.

With kind regards
Nik

@nik again thanks for taking the time to reply in depth.
I've now read your posts a few times and have a - somewhat -clearer understanding.
There is a correlation between "your" system and what I was aiming for with the sponge substrate.
Interestingly, I had initially decided to use sand as my .... er soil.
However, so much of the web seems to shout that down, quoting of course, the lack of nutrients.
That confused me somewhat as the "proprietary soils" on the market seem to only last a year or so at best.
So to me it seems like postponing the inevitable, ie, having to add fertiliser to the tank, or rebuild and begin again.
The latter does not enthral me.
At this point, I am abandoning sponge sheets under the substrate and am back to the drawing board.
I also had a neat reply from @alicia who spoke from experience. Sorry, I forget her forum handle.
Again, thanks everyone.
p

 

[TheBic]

You can colour the blue foam

Sorry, I missed this the first few times I read it.
Can you clarify BLUE for me please?
Is it still the sponge foam you're talking about, or polystyrene?
If the latter, I can buy sheet BLUE styrene sheet here- but BLUE is flame proofed.
The colour distinguishes it from food grade - white - but China Gvt banned that a few years ago so is less easy to obtain in smaller amounts.

Now, I know this next question seems way off topic, but bear with me a mo.
Do you buy eggs on line or at the store?
If on line, in trays of 30 and how are they packaged?
On recycled cardboard trays or some white, stiff plastic foam stuff?
Thx
P